Login  |  Register
Nissanhelp.com - All About Nissan
Do-It-Yourself Maintenance Owners Manuals Recalls/Campaigns Service Bulletins Service Manuals Nissan OBDII Codes Glossary & Acronyms More...
Member's Ride Photos Stock Photo Gallery
Classifieds - For Sale Classifieds - Wanted To Buy Classifieds - Mechanic Wanted Classifieds - Auto Services Search Auto Parts
Register FAQ Social Groups Mark Forums Read
VQ Engine Ping / Knock Forums > > VQ Engine Ping / Knock VQ Engine Ping / Knock
Forgot Password? Join Us!


Murano Nissan Murano Discussion Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 10-29-2009, 02:56 PM
PHoward
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Question VQ Engine Ping / Knock

Hi Guys, Ran a search for this on the forum, but could not find a thread under the Murano. My engine pings at part throttle. It's a 2005 and for the first two years of its life it was fine. For the past two years it's been pinging when I accelerate. What's interesting is that it doesn't ping if I rev it, or if I push it real hard. But if I baby it and accelerate slowly, as soon as the CVT "shifts" down it pings for a brief period. I did a bunch of stuff to stop this ping: I use the best gas I can get (Chevron 94), I SeaFoam'ed it, I used copious amounts of Techron, I took it to the dealer for injector cleaning, etc etc. The darn thing still pings. In fact the dealer told me it's normal for the VQ engine to ping (I think that's a load of crap). So, other than the quality of gas, or carbon build-up, what else can cause ping at partial throttle? The EGR valve perhaps? I'm out of ideas and my dealer is of no use. Your suggestions would be greatly appreciated!
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 10-29-2009, 03:14 PM
kll
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

pinging is related to ignition timing. mixtures cant detonate at ideal positon in cylinders. it is directly related to knock sensor on engines. also can be indirectly related to revolution sensor and cranck position sensor. i dont know your car very well, but engine is engine. did you check that sensor(s)? (according to my experience in past on a BMW, overheated engines tend to ping easier than healthy engines can it be related to gasket? I was using high octane gasoline to prevent. it was actually working. but i am not sure about reason. may be someone can tell us) and did you check with OBD scanner? about trouble codes?

-----
as a note
if a dealer or mechanic tells you that any obvious abnormal thing is normal in any car, better to run opposite direction. this is my experience.

Last edited by kll; 10-29-2009 at 03:16 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 10-31-2009, 05:03 AM
tech22's Avatar
tech22 tech22 is offline
Master Enthusiast
2005 Frontier Crew Cab Frontier Crew Cab
05 nissan frontier
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: alliance,ohio
Age: 70
Posts: 2,049
Default

If the engine is pinging as you stated there should be a code stored in the ecm.Have someone pull the codes and get back to us.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 11-04-2009, 06:04 PM
PHoward
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Question

So, I bought an OBDII / EOBD scanner. There are no trouble codes, no freeze frame data...

I'm at a loss to what this could be. The ping that I hear does not last for long, only a couple of seconds. It's almost like the knock sensor is too "lazy" and takes its time to adjust for the pinging. It sure irritates the hell out of me, but what concerns me is that eventually this is not a good thing for the engine - right?

Do you guys have any other ideas?
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 11-04-2009, 11:30 PM
kll
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

do you have a chance to try a higher octane rating gasoline or fuel additive to boost octane?
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 11-05-2009, 08:49 AM
PHoward
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I tried 94 octane from Chevron, that's pretty much the highest I can get in Vancouver. Should I try some octane booster in addition to that? I know the VQ engne is extremely high compression, and that high compression is the cause of the pinging. What I don't understand is how do many others run the Murano on regular gas and have no pinging, while I get this pinging even with the best gas I can get. I also read somewhere that perhaps the ignition should be set back about 2 degrees to counter lean fuel mixture, but I'm not sure the ECU can be fooled like that. Plus my MPG would probably become worse, right?
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 11-05-2009, 11:02 PM
jokove jokove is offline
Enthusiast
2005 Murano
2005 Murano SL
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Ajaltoun - Lebanon
Posts: 83
Default

i have the same issue with my 2005 murano,
i hear the ping occasionaly when i accelerate, if i'm going upward it's more probably to come out. i'm using 98 octane TOTAL. no codes stored, my car sound like a tractor for a couple of seconds. THAT IS NOT GOOD FOR A 2005 CAR!!!
__________________
JOKOVE
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 11-06-2009, 12:13 AM
kll
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PHoward View Post
I tried 94 octane from Chevron, that's pretty much the highest I can get in Vancouver. Should I try some octane booster in addition to that? I know the VQ engne is extremely high compression, and that high compression is the cause of the pinging. What I don't understand is how do many others run the Murano on regular gas and have no pinging, while I get this pinging even with the best gas I can get. I also read somewhere that perhaps the ignition should be set back about 2 degrees to counter lean fuel mixture, but I'm not sure the ECU can be fooled like that. Plus my MPG would probably become worse, right?
a modern car should adjust its timing by itself. if you override it, it will not cure problem, you will be removing symptoms. can it be something,related to exhaust valves? a manufacturing problem? material quality? and do you use correct/new sparkplugs?
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 11-11-2009, 07:19 PM
Macsleuth
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

hmm, could be carbon in the chamber or on the valves.
Do you regularly use premium fuel? If so, engine should be pretty clean as far as the fuel system is concerned.
WHen was the last time you changed the fuel filter? Have you noticed a decline in fuel consumption?
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 11-11-2009, 11:44 PM
kll
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

do that car have chain or timing belt?
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 11-14-2009, 07:21 PM
Macsleuth
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Just reread the post and noticed the seafoam, so I' assuming the carbon build up in a non-issue. Hmm, Must be a sensor, the engine has a couple from what I remember, maybe one needs to be replaced, although you have no codes. Have you tried running anything for cleaning the Cats?
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 12-08-2009, 12:50 PM
PHoward
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Hi Guys,

I wanted to experiment with this issue a little bit, so sorry for my apparent hiatus. Anyway, I found some interesting bits of information on the web, and I want to share it with you.

First, the result of my "test". For the past couple of refuelings, I used 94 octane premium gas from Chevron. (Before this I have been using 91 Octane, also from Chevron). I also added octane booster to the mix, so I figure the Murano was running on something like 98 Octane fuel. First, all the pinging disappeared. After consuming a tankful of this "rocketfuel" :) the pinging started to come back. Now it's back full-force again, while using an equvivalent of 98 Octane gas!

So, I did some searching, and I believe I'm onto something. First, many, and I mean many people have this problem with the VQ engine, and not just in the Murano, but other Nissan products. Apparently, the ECU is "optimized" in Nissan products to advance the ignition to the very point of pre-ignition in an effort to maximize fuel economy. What happens is that when the vehicle starts to accelerate, the ECU will advance ignition timing as soon as possible, plus the torque converter is locked at the earliest opportunity and as a final trick, the CVT will "shift" to higher gear as soon as possible. Again, this is all done in order to achieve maximum fuel economy. The problem seems to be that Nissan's ECU is too "aggressive". It advances ignition so far, that knocking (pinging) occurs, at which point the knock sensor is activated and the ignition is then retarded to avoid further knocking. This "dance routine" of the ignition advancement and the knock sensor seems to be the reason for the brief, but very disconcerting pinging some of us experience. Some Nissan dealers claim that occassional pre-ignition (ping) is not a problem. In my humble opinion however, this is BS. My Murano has not been pinging for the first two years of its life, no matter what grade gas I've been using. So, evidently, it can indeed work without pinging. The source of the brief pinging issue is however very much seem to be centering around ignition timing. I also learned that the Nissan OBDII tool (Consult II) has access to adjust the base ignition timing as much as 5 degrees back and forth. Some on other forums suggested retarding the ECU 2 degrees and using "cold" sparkplugs to eliviate the problem. "Cold" plug are recommended, because pre-ignition (ping) is caused by high chamber temperatures, and apparently the "cold" variety helps with pinging in high-temp engines (although I am having a hard time understanding this part). Having said that, the pinging I experience has indeed a lot to do with engine temperature, because the ping only makes its stage appearance once th engine has warmed up to operating temperature. While it's cold, there's no pinging, whatsoever.

I'd also like to answer some of your questions in this thread:

- Sparkplugs are still the original, and should not need replacement. I have 91,000km (56,544 miles) on my Murano. Also, if sparkplugs misfire, the ECU should trap that in a trouble code, rigth? I have no DTC's whatsoever...
- Carbon buildup could potentially be a problem, yes, but the fact is, I've taken this car through several rounds of cleaning with Techron and SeaFoam, so I am very doubtful that any carbon is left.
- The Murano has a timing chain. This problem however cannot be timing chain related, and I tell you why: there's no pinging when in Neutral, at any RPM. The pinging only happens under load. The harder the load, the worst the pinging. Such as going uphill or making a turn into an incline.

So, that's the story so far. Pretty bleak to be honest, because the only recourse I found so far is ECU ignition timing adjustment (-2 degrees) and new, cold spark plugs. And even that is not guaranteed to solve the issue. Bottom line is though, I cannot accept Nissan's claim that pinging is "normal". Sorry Nissan, but it's NOT normal for a $50k car! Boy, my 1980 VW golf never knocked, and that was indeed old technology. Pinging is not good news for the engine, as it causes extensive and accelerated wear and tear. So, I will continue with my Crusade. If anyone has any further ideas, please share! Many thanks guys.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 12-23-2009, 10:51 AM
tubbedz's Avatar
tubbedz tubbedz is offline
Enthusiast
2003 Murano
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: United States
Posts: 28
Default

A friend with a 2004 Murano also has pinging issues. It only pings at part-throttle and only with the engine fully warmed up. Here are some things we have tried and has not solved the issue. Again, we have no codes stored whatsover.
We replaced with new: MAF $500, OEM NGK Plugs PLFR5A-11 $60, cleaned Throttle Body and Reset computer, Reset idle learning, Reset throttle, 2- Fuel pressure regulators $100 + $90, Coolant $10, Air filter $10, Oil change $50, full tank of Union 76 100-Octane unleaded, Redline fuel injection cleaner, Seafoam flush, Knock Sensor $25, changed CVT transmission oil $20/quart, had the Nissan dealer re-flash the computer $300, PCV valve $10, upper intake gasket $10, lower intake gasket $25, coolant temperature sensor $30, thermostat $40. @$$%!

Things I'm considering: replacing all the spark plugs with one step colder NGK PLFR6A-11. Also I questioned the ignition coils, but I have no misfire codes. So I took a coil apart. I noticed that in each coil boot there is a spring that transfers voltage to the plug. Wound in the spring is a resistor to reduce RF Interference. Maybe this resistor heats and fails?? So I will replace all the boots and resistors with NGW 58913. Will follow up later....

Any Nissan ECM specialists on here!!! Here is what I have read/heard from reading automotive manuals, talking to mechanics and racing. When the engine is cold, the ECM is in a specific "map" where extra fuel is introduced. This raises the engine idle during the "warm up" period. Also, several sensors are not active until fully heated, probably retarding the ignition timing. Some of theses sensors, are the MAF and the Oxygen sensors. There maybe others. These sensors require intense heat to work and at operating temperature they probably change the ECM "map" to decrease the extra fuel and fine tune or increase the timing.

Also, the Coolant Thermostat is closed when cold and opens when the engine is "warmed up". The warmed coolant triggers the "coolant temp sensor", which also changes the fuel/timing "map".

Furthermore, ignition coils work fine when they are "cool", but once introduced to extreme heat they tend to fail. Most coils have a primary and secondary winding where the secondary winding cannot be physically tested. A coil will work fine with just the primary winding and you will never know the secondary is not working until the coil completely fails and you get misfires. When our race car is misfiring/running odd we sometimes swap in new coil or ignition boxes.

All of these Sensors/Triggers could probably be a factor why the engine does not ping when cold and will not trigger a code until the Sensor/Trigger has completely failed and is non-operational.

Once the engine is "warmed up" all of the sensors become active and the extra fuel is not needed. These sensors(MAF, thermostat, Oxygen Sensor) all become fully heated and functioning. Except the ignition coil, as it does not like heat. Any one of these sensors could be faulty and causing the pinging when the engine is warmed and at operating temperature.

Other factors regarding a constant "pinging" that does not involve cold or warm engine temperatures are mechanical failure. Such as cracked heads/block, blown head gasket, piston ring failure, leaking valve seals, etc...

Because my friend's vehicle does not ping when cold I tend to believe that it is not a mechanical issue with the engine but instead it is Sensor or ECM related. Also when in Neutral there is no pining. Also in Drive, if the rpm's are increased above the pinging, the pinging disappears. What mode or "map" does the ECM switch to when going from Neutral to Drive??? Is it variable, depending upon engine load/engine vacuum???

These are some of my findings so far. If others have gone as in depth as I have and replaced/tested any/all sensors on their Murano, please include more info to this thread so we can solve this. I have also noticed that the same issues are also related to Altima's and Maxima's.

Please help find a cure!!!

Merry Christmas!!
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 12-24-2009, 08:29 AM
tubbedz's Avatar
tubbedz tubbedz is offline
Enthusiast
2003 Murano
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: United States
Posts: 28
Default

Bump.......

I guess no one fixes their own cars anymore....
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 01-05-2010, 11:47 AM
tubbedz's Avatar
tubbedz tubbedz is offline
Enthusiast
2003 Murano
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: United States
Posts: 28
Default

Update!!!!

I found a "piggyback" ECM controller that can retard ignition and modify fuel curves. Check this out....part #FTC1-103 . It is for the VQ35DE engine that is in all 1st generation Muranos.
http://www.splitsec.com/products/fue...calibrator.htm
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
engine, engine knock, engine ping, knock, ping

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 02:21 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO v2.0.42 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2024 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.