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03 Altima 2.5L Auto Start/Stalling help Forums > > 03 Altima 2.5L Auto Start/Stalling help 03 Altima 2.5L Auto Start/Stalling help
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  #1  
Old 12-03-2012, 07:42 PM
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tryduck tryduck is offline
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Default 03 Altima 2.5L Auto Start/Stalling help

2003 Altima 2.5L 163,000
I been checking over the net for a little help and came to this site.I been trying to help a retired disabled vet with his car for almost 3 days now.When I met guy original issue was huge exhaust leak he thought was comming from the top O2 bung.He had several people try to weld it and still had didnt fix leak.This leak was getting inside vehicle and when I test drove vehicle , I could taste it in the back of my mouth , thats how back exhaust was leaking.I got under and did some looking and found it was not the 02 that was leaking it was the donut on the bottom and also the manifold to head gasket was leaking also.I told him to bring it by asap and I would fix it up.Well he got almost to the shop and car died,and wouldnt start.It was pushed and let sit and I got call.I went and turned it over and it fireded up enough I could sorta idle at 5mph down to shop.I took off Pre cat and saw guts were busted out but they left a steel ring and looked to be a 5" round metal o'ring mesh.I found that someone had welded in the 02 sensor also.I got out grinder, and got it all fixed up.I called nissan and they infact did a recall on it but they reused gaskets and was why they were leaking so bad.Now this is 35k after recall was done now.I got new gaskets and now exhaust is all sealed and not one leak in it.Now I couldnt just give car back as it isnt wanting to run so I would like to fix it for this guy.Him and his wife are 60+ and really dont look to have much money.Now I pulled codes and only one was for misfire cyl 2.I went and got a set of platium plugs NKG and went to changing them out.Well I started pulling coils and some had busted plastic coil overs and cyl 1&4 were corroded with green/white material.I went got two coils (due to corrosion) and two coil over boots for other 2 coils.I went to start pulling plugs and found cyl 2 was seized somewhat in head.Looks like last shop replaced 1,3,4 with Denso plugs but left 2 in.I got plug out and go all the plugs changed out with NKG platiums.Go to fire it up and it still doesnt want to run.I pull all plugs and check compression and for 160k I think its ok , 150,150,160,145 dry 180 wet all 4.So I try a different set of plugs which were denso. still same.Check net and find out these have CAM and CRANK sensor issues , so Go get 2 and put them in , didnt bother testing due to being plastic, if metal I would have.Go to fire up and still doesnt want to run.It will idle but will stall out in few mins.I cannot get rpms above 1000 and it chokes out like no fuel. Checked plugs and sooty.Now I am just stuck.I have a OTC 3111 scanner and no other codes are setting.Would think they would being way its running.I really don't want to toss a lot of money at it because I am not planning to ask this guy to be repaid for anything. I did not want them riding around in a car with exhaust smell like that but I just cant give them it back like this.Just trying to find what else I can check.
I read somewhere about intake butter fly screws coming out and haven't yet pulled upper intake which will do tomorrow.
I have let idle and pulled mass air flow sensor and it shuts off.Replaced Cam and Crank sensor,2Coils,plugs,Battery is New,No codes other then first misfire cyl2 which is now fixed.I found out ECM was reprogramed and rear sway bar bushing were done on recall back in 2010.Oil is clean/full
I have some readings for scanner data capture but not all of them.Engine doesnt use much oil he said , maybe 1/2 qt between 5k oil changes.I did pull back seat and listen for fuel pump to come on and it did but dont have Tester for this vehicle, it has no port.I was thinking about just using a fuel inj hose to the top of pump and my fuel psi tester/cleaner but havent .

What is next step I should be looking at ? Along with looking at butterfly's. I am going to look for bad grounds tomorrow and wanted to try to get some other ideas.
I have Fluke77 also but not sure about how I need to be checking different sensors.Just haven't messed around with these VTC engines and dont want to damage working things.
Is it possible that the Variable timing solenoid has failed without setting codes?Maybe Timing chain jump?Seems far fetched but at this point I want to give him his car back running and fumes free so any help is very well appreciated!

Last edited by tryduck; 12-03-2012 at 07:54 PM.
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  #2  
Old 12-03-2012, 09:00 PM
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bennyb53 bennyb53 is offline
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Based on your description of will not hold idle, it seems to me a fuel delivery issue. You can hear the fuel pump powered up when you turn the key to On while sitting in the driver seat. The fuel pressure regulator is built into the fuel pump assy. So to replace that you have to get a new fuel pump. You can do fuel pressure test with a T fitting in the engine compartement. There's a quick connect where fuel line connects to the fuel rail by the throttle body. You will need a 3/8" fuel tube disconnect removal tool under $5.

The crankshaft and camshaft sensors if they're good should work even the plastics one. The recommended parts are the metal. They are one and the same parts. The MAF sensor as well as ECT sensor can be the culprit tho they usually trigger a DTC. Since there are no dtcs, looke for possible failed starter or ignition relay and ECM relay. I suggest you download the Engine Control manual for the vehicle type. All manuals are found in Knowledgebase section. Hope this helps.
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  #3  
Old 12-04-2012, 02:59 AM
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Remove the front exhaust tube and check for blockages. If the cat came apart the remains will be in the pipe blocking the exhaust from exiting. That is most likely the reason for the gasket leaks.
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  #4  
Old 12-04-2012, 10:56 AM
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Ok Checked Fuel PSI @ 50 . Went and bought a whole IPDM and changed whole unit then I swamped relay by relay(Same part number IPDMs. no change so don't see it as a IPDM power issue.Took off upper intake and checked butterfly's, All on but were a little loose and moveable so tightened screws down about 1/4 turn and all tight.Pulled and checked all injectors all pulsing and spraying in fine mist cones.Checked grounds and all secured, loosed and re tightened them also. Before I take to dealer for ECM to be reprogrammed I want to check and make sure timing chain didn't jump, heard that sometimes this happens and want to rule it out.I am guessing there is a not so easy way to check to make sure timing chain hasn't jumped is there.I will search but think only thing I saw was Head R&R and involved pulling oil pan and alot of stuff. Is there a way to just pull the Variable timing solenoid plate and put in TDC without going through all that R&R head stuff?I am thinking that it is going more towards timing chain loose/jump then a ECM problem at this point and want to check before pulling car to dealer for ECM reprogramming. Thanks for the about input and have checked those, I took off exhaust precat and inspected everything before putting it back on.I do not want to put intake back on till I check timing marks so If someone knows of a Post about it great but I will search. Many thanks
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  #5  
Old 12-04-2012, 02:39 PM
NissanAltima01 NissanAltima01 is offline
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Here are two images i have found in regards to your timing chain question, i hope this helps.
Attached Thumbnails
03 Altima 2.5L Auto Start/Stalling help-261618_noname_230-jpg   03 Altima 2.5L Auto Start/Stalling help-261618_noname_231-jpg  
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  #6  
Old 12-04-2012, 04:35 PM
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Thanks after searching i found several Head R&R and a few Chain R&R guides.Do you really have to break it all down like that just to check to see if jumped on cams?Was thinking There should be marked spot on damper and Cams once I take off Cover with VTC on it.Put it on TDC combustion and check cams right?If it takes doing tear down chain R&R just to see if chain is right then I should just go ahead and toss a chain kit on right?

Anyone have a part number for the VTC solenoid for this 2.5L ? Seems its very easy to find 3.5 VTC's but not for this 2.5L. Online parts places do not even offer the 2.5L variable timing solenoid.
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  #7  
Old 12-04-2012, 09:01 PM
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Anything is possible but as far I as know the VTC Solenoid do not cause a No Start condition. The car almost made it to your shop when engine died. You got it started and since then will not start. If you can borrow a known working MAF sensor (mass air flow) from 02-03 Altima or Sentra with QR25 engine then you can verify the MAF is not faulty.

Part Name: Valve Assy-Solenoid, Valve Timing Control.
Part #: 96796-ZE00C. Go to: nissanpartswarehouse.com. More or less $160. plus shipping.
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Old 12-05-2012, 10:42 AM
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Thanks for VTC imput.I was thinking that it starts and will idle(rough & dies out in min or so)but when I go to press acc pedal it bogs and dies.I was thinking the VTC maybe wouldnt be advancing the Intake cam for.I havent dealt with VT engines and have been out of turning wrenches for while now.With ocasional repairs for friends but first variable timing engine car on major repairs.I checked timing chain and looks to be right but isnt clear where it should line up with on each cam.I put damper on the left single mark and left cam is about the 11o'clock lining up about with the inner cover bolt and the right exh cam is at about the 3 o'clock lining up about to the VT solenoid cover bolt hole.It isnt clear what is used to line up the cams against the back cover so is that about correct or not possible to do it like this.The damper has a Marker on the case cover and three on the damper itself so It says use the left lone damper mark and not the two together to the right.

The chain has links colored and turn over engine several times and not lining up so think thats only for new installs.

I would like to rule out the Mass air flow but just part swaping is not the way to go.That route always ends up costing customers when it isnt needed.Now I would if I knew someone with a 02-05 altima 2.5L but most of my customers do not deal with asia or imports.I never got into that vehicle market but then again dodge/chevy/ford now all use these type engines instead of our own.Guess someone thought americans arnt smart enough for this and just import engines/tranmissons and other parts as well. Then try to stamp made in america on it just because it was assembled in the USA.Whole different downfall Issue there.

It looks to be in time but until I know what marks on the cam sprokets line up with what on the case it could be a tooth or even 1/2 tooth off either way as a few MM off changes a lot.Seems like you could change cams without tearing off front cover and oil pan/banancer assly or is it not possible to do that ?

Last edited by tryduck; 12-05-2012 at 10:44 AM.
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Old 12-05-2012, 02:27 PM
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The no start condition is always a PITA cuz it covers pretty much the entire engine (in today's cars) from charging system/ignition system/fuel delivery/engine control management/electricals/and most importantly the brain which is the ECM (on board computer). The maf is a pricey part and set you back about $200 online.

Your description of the timing marks are about right. I have pics in Member Gallery when I did my HG replacement. The pic is after I put #1 cyl. in tdc on compression. The damper has a mark to line up to the mark in timing cover. So sounds like you're in tdc on compression. If you remove the camshafts and timing chain, during re-install, the marks (colored link) on timing chain and mark on camshaft sprockets must line up.

You said, "when you press gas pedal, engine dies." When you do that the pedal sensor sends signal to ECM which in turn send signal to Electric Throttle Motor Actuator part of throttle body assy. It also operate the TPS sensor and IACV-AAC STEP MOTOR. That could be faulty.

Verify your work again specially the crankshaft sensor connector to make sure its tight and locked. You have to push back up the lock tab or else it will be loose. Other components that cause a No Start condition are: Anti-theft system, Park/Neutral Safety switch just so you know. But something is still pointing me toward the fuel pump or maf. Or may be I'm just being stubborn. Did you test fuel pump circuit? good luck.
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Old 12-05-2012, 10:50 PM
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I will double check the Cam and Crank Sensors making sure they are secure.On the crank I had to push a blue tab till it clicked and only then it would allow connector to release from sensor.When I reattached and pushed it, it also clicked and blue part popped out and connector was tight and unable to be removed.Cam sensor was just a pinch pull type but will check them tomorrow again.
I am feeling this is more like a defective ECM now that I have seen the timing chain.I did see 50 psi and injectors were spraying nice mist cones of fuel so I don't think thats the problem, although thought it odd that when turning over engine and watching patterns all four were pulsing at same time and all spraying together.It will start up and idle but when you give it fuel it will die out with sorta a whooshing sound in the intake then stall if u dont let pedal back to idle.I dont have a scope to view wave patterns either.
When I went and got a IPDM I also got a ECM from a like vehicle from a buddies Junk yard(engine / tranny / Throttle body & MAF were already gone) which I plan to swap out .I did see the throttle plate is moving and TPS is registering as pedal is pushed with live data.Called another favor from a long time friend who is going to come and program the Chip key to that ECM but wondering if ECM is VIN specific and will cause issue with Dash Cluster.This item I cant check and sending to dealer would almost certainly cost more then cars worth to Dia and Replace/Reprogram.
About 5 years ago a ranger presented same thing and it ended up being the ECM but that was like a 92 2.9L Electronic Dist system.Not the same systems but Just has got me thinking it is more program related.Now I did not remove valve cover but plan to.Was waiting on gaskets to come in and did nothing but pull VTC cover and align for TDC and check timing.I did not pull damper and not sure if crank key way was at top either and just relyed on damper notches and cam sprocket notches.
I will get it fixed just a matter of time.Just wasn't planning on having to go through all this on a original exhaust leak.But then again nice to be challenged once in a while.Thanks again folks nice to see Technicians/Mechanics have a community like this to help them out when they get stumped.I did get to download the Engine control/mechanical so thank you for allowing that to be possible to people.
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Old 12-06-2012, 08:39 AM
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Oops! there's your problem, the new ECM. Not sure the need to replace the existing ecm. The new ecm is not recognizing the signal from the anti-theft transceiver called Immobilizer unit mounted by ignition cyl. Unfortunately only dealer can program the keys to new ECM. So bring all keys. If you still have the old ECM and if not damaged it might still work. You can try that.
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Old 12-06-2012, 11:31 AM
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I have not replaced the ECM yet. I just got it when I got a IPDM out of a junk car.Original ECM is still in car.Not a Security/Passcode issues.Car will crank, run and idle but thats all.I think I have found issue.I have discovered that the top timing chain guide has broken ear and chain mark in it.I now believe that chain jumped one or two teeth.The piece of the ear broke off and looks like lodged in between chain and sprocket and now must be somewhere down in bottom.Just this alone I have to tear down and find it anyhow.Based on seeing this I am going to put a new timing chain kit in it and install as manual.I did call around and a few locksmiths said they can program new keys to ECM.But for now I will R&R Timing chain and go from there.

Last edited by tryduck; 12-06-2012 at 11:35 AM.
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Old 12-06-2012, 05:13 PM
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That's the top timing guide and you can replace it by removing the upper timing cover or the VTC Solenoid cover.
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Old 12-07-2012, 07:18 PM
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Yes it is benny


Was wondering which process do I use to install new chain kit....
Do I use marks on sprockets and align with the yellow links or do I use the both cam lobes pointing out one?

One way seems different then other.In the EM manual uses color links at 10 ish intake sprocket mark and 2 ish exhaust sprocket mark, Crank with keyway straight up then another picture has put crank TDC and cam lobes pointing out with Intake timing mark at 11ish and exhaust sprocket mark at about 3ish.Which one is correct because they are putting cams different in relation to Crank which is going to cause collision of valve and piston.

Benny when you did you HG how did you get yours back in time.I am guessing you went with new chain kit too so marking would not have done you any good due to cam sprokets and chain were changed.I am waiting on the timing Kit/Oil pump to come in and just been rehearsing procedure.When I put on TDC, cams are not in exact locations as the picture looking through the VTC cover.So I am going to go as timing has been lost.Which method should be used if cam timing has been lost?
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Old 12-08-2012, 09:28 AM
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When cyl 1 in TDC on compression, the int/exh cam lobes are pointing out. I took pics b4 removing them. I take note during re-installation with little adjustments so the marks will line up (sprokets and link). When that happens you look under the crankshaft there's a mark on c-sprocket and red color on link. Its lined up also.

Though I had no issues with timing guides except the top which had couple ridges I decided to replace the three timing guides (top, and 2 shoes.
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